Message 07339 [Homepage] [Navigation]
Thread: oxdeT07332 Message: 4/10 L1 [In index]
[First in Thread] [Last in Thread] [Date Next] [Date Prev]
[Next in Thread] [Prev in Thread] [Next Thread] [Prev Thread]

Re: [ox] Re: Oekonux and politics



hello stefanMn, hello oekonuxists,

  there is much confusion about the "left" at seems a lot of people have
different definition of what this word means. so with a different definiton
in your head we can have endless discussions about the topic with no
solution. a definition by itself can not be right or wrong. a definition can
be appropriate or not. it can be a commonly accepted one or an exoctic one..
etc.. to bring the discussion back to the ground we should all simply stick
to terms that we share. so let us avoid the term where it is not needed. i
never said that oekonux should prominently wear the lable "left". the only
thing that it has to be aware off: in the definition that people commonly
have for "left" oekonux will fit in (as soon as they know about it).


Another important point is the isolation the traditional left is in
regarding society  and yet another is the closed mind set this traditional
left is not only associated with but IMHO actually has.

exactly such statements are completly meaningless unless you present a
definition of what you mean with "left" and "traditional left" etc.. as i
said above: your definiton of left seems different from mine. so let us
avoid this fruitless discussion.

the actual discussion was the role of the social forum process. this is
something concrete which can be observed.... and my argument is: it should
be.

However, I believe there is a misconception of what social fora all over 
the world are about. Especially in Germany their deliberate pluralism was 
attacked for its "trans-left" character by keepers of the holy marxist 
truth.

This might be the case. Their topics are very traditional, however.
<disclaimer> This does *not* mean these topics are uninteresting. They
are just not Oekonux topics. Oekonux does not cover the whole world
and IMHO it would be a mistake to even try that (at least for the
foreseeable future - which may be different tomorrow ;-) ). Oekonux
has a topic and IMHO it should stick to that. </disclaimer>

here we are at the core of the problem: as i and others argue: when the
topic is "the basis for a new society" then the "whole world" is to some
degree the topic. take one random topic that you labled as "traditional
left" and then think for a second if oekonux theory could be applicable
there... i am sure you will come up with something. others will come up with
even more. people actually working in the field will come up with even more.
etc.. the application of the theory to all this fields is what i am talking
about with the word "practice". and this kind of practice could push the
theorie forward...


If any area dominates the shape of Oekonux clearly this strength vanishes
quickly - - though the left shape I consider more dangerous than many
others.

again the word "left" with an implicit definition that you have. maybe you
could explain what you mean with such senteces in clear words. as a lot
of people here do not think the "left" is dangerous..

But then there is a political point, too: I still think - and that is of 
course a very old discussion within the project - that there are at least 
two possible futures for Free Software and its principles: Being adapted 
and modernising capitalism without really changing anything - or 
destabilising existing power structures. There is potential for both. 

I said something similar yesterday.

and both ways are also considerd by the social forum movements. there are
some who think the system could be reformed athers are working towards
fundamental transformation/revolution.


Actually I think I had some roots for this in my head for quite some time
now, but Graham's third possibility put it to the point: Coalitions of
organizations might be simply outdated. Coalitions of organizations are a
typical construct of mass societies. Free Software in many respects
transcends mass societies.

Why not favour this network approach where simply each individual
decides who to coalize with and who to avoid? To me this does sound
much more like Free Software than "Newsflash: Today Apache and Debian
announced a coalition".


see. you have exactly stated what the social forum idea is: you do not have
"coalitions of organizations" there. the members of organisations (and
others completly un-organised) go to the forum and mingle. there is a
coalition of people and not one of organisations. this is the whole idea of
bringing all the people together...

the more we discuss i see that your resentiments against the social forum
can only be explained by the complete lack of knowledge about it..

Clearly, social fora 
and other 'new social movements' are as oekonuxish as it gets in today's 
political landscape.

Well, I'm writing this in next to every mail in this thread but it is
simply not the case that there are no contacts. I for one would hope
that we have even more contacts like the ones listed on the on-tour
page to all thinkable players on the political and other landscapes.

so you are talking about the kind of contacts like "organisation A announced
to support organisation B". the kind of contact that you declared obsolete
in the paragraph above? no. we do not need this kind of contact. what it
nees is that people mingle... do cooperation on a personal level and not
just send some official speaker. this is why i wanted the oekonux at the
social forum in the first place..

Lately on the occasion of the software patent decisions in the EU
parliament there has been even visible political activism on the side
of Oekonux by joining the closed web sites. I think this is a topic
where Oekonux can and should show an activist face. Furthermode the
link page lists a few initiatives with their banners who are active in
questions around software patents, copyright, and TCPA.

 by coincidence i was one of the people lobbying the bruxelles. the lobbying
would not have been possible in that form without the support of the left
and the green fractions.... and i think this is a good example: without
support from the social movements we can not change the prameters in this
world so that the principles of free software can be applied to society in a
large scale.. quite the opposit: with neoliberal capitalism the system is
even threatening the areas where these principles are already succseful.
(patents vs. free software here)

after all it is not so bad to have the "left" as an ally. (where "left" here
would be defined as opposition to neoliberal capitalism).


Maybe it is really time for a fork? Oekonux remaining more theory-based
and eager to remain politically independent (which is of course also
politics), while another project gathers some people who are interested
in Free Software and its principles as political project.

Hmm... A fork means to have the same goal but in two seperated
projects which has been one project at some point in time. I don't
know yet how your suggestions really looks like but I guess it is more
like a spin-off. Actually there is already one spin-off from Oekonux I
know off:

	http://linux.bildungsbande.de/index.htm

no. i was talking explicitly about a "fork" because it would have the same
goal but would take a different path to achieve it. (where of course the
fork would not be such a catastrophic thing like in the development of
software. maintaining 2 simimlar codebases is much more waste of time than
working on the same goal from different sides)

At least I would have been more inclined to come the long way from Norway 
to Austria knowing that I will not only attend a 'more internal' (as Stefan 
writes) Oekonux meeting.

Ok, I see I used a really misleading wording here. Actually the
conferences so far could easily labeled as "more external". Internal /
external are bad descriptions here.

no. to me it seems your wording was correctly in line with what you wanted
to express. you where always talking about that the conference was ("for
*us*") that is an internal thing. the only fresh air would have been some
carefully selected speakers you planed to invite..

mond.


-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   .                Franz Schaefer         GPG KeyID: CFA2F632
  ..             +43/699/172 01 007     Fingerprint: 57C2 C0CC
  ...             schaefer mond.at         6F0A 54C7 0D88 D37E 
    ...          http://www.mond.at/       C17C CB16 CFA2 F632

________________________________
Web-Site: http://www.oekonux.de/
Organisation: projekt oekonux.de



[English translation]
Thread: oxdeT07332 Message: 4/10 L1 [In index]
Message 07339 [Homepage] [Navigation]