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* Ref.: »Re: Does anyone ever read these posted links? (was: Re: [ox-en] Re: [pox] Please kick and ban Jonathan Walther for racism)« * Niall Douglas (2004-03-02 00:31)
However, if you actually go read the posted links (apart from the secret stuff on reactorcore), it shows Jonathan in a reasonably favourable light.Is uncommented spreading of populist lies or half-lies better than making them up one-self?!Well I certainly wouldn't do so with that kind of material, and furthermore he digs his own hole by how he's presented them. He has brought this on himself but that doesn't make him a nazi.
Well, firstly, I don't want to decide whether he is a nazi or not; I do, however, care about the "hole" he is "digging". After all, people cannot / will not be judged by their (honest or proclaimed) intentions alone, but also by their real position in the framework of interaction.
... No one knows Wagner for that - it's his contributions to music which anyone cares about.Ooops? I don't know your definition of "no one" and "anyone", yet for me it seems apparent that "everyone" who has an interest in classical music¹ does know that Wagner himself did have ambitions beyond "easy listening" or just writing music in general. And that his "theoretical" views are not un-influenced by his ideological views. (How could they? ;-)Obviously if it were a site specialising on the music of Wagner or even the music of that period in Germany then you'd go into the surrounding background. However, it's a general purpose Wikipedia similar to a light encyclopedia. If I look up Wagner in the Britannica (1993), I see absolutely zero mention of any anti-semitism at all or even Hitler for that matter. This to me says it all - Wagner's political or religious views are unimportant to history.
1. Wagner Wagner heavily critisized what he called the frivolity of the opera and his whole oeuvre is his form of putting this criticism into practice. Now you seem to try to reduce his music to the role of mere entertainment? Wagner had a lot to say *about* music and why it's wrong to treat music as something we would call "l'art pour l'art". He took an active interest in the political life of his time and his musical dramas, his whole concept of aesthetics, were *meant* to play an active role in the transformation of society (including politics). This is why I would agree with you if the article had the title "Richard Wagner's Music from a purely musical perspective" (whatever that might mean ;-). But if it is supposed to be an article about him as a composer, as a person, about the ideas and concepts that drove him and his work, then this would clearly not be adequate. This is not yet an answer to whether Hitler should appear in an article about Wagner. But IMO the reception of a person and his work should not be ignored in an encyclopedia, because a) it is part of general knowledge and b) does hardly fit anywhere else. And, after all, it is the (history of) perception that makes him worth appearing there at all (in comparison with Joe Bloggs, for example).¹ 2. Wikipedia vs. Britanica I don't think that imitating an existing work is the goal of wikipedia. Cheers, Casi. [¹ -- as for myself, I would *only* include him for his historic importance, because I find his musical drama mostly stupifying and boring (-- which is why I decided two months ago, not to go to a Wagner-opera again ;-).] _______________________ http://www.oekonux.de/
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