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[ox] free software versus freedom? (a thread on reader-list)



(This is a discussion going on at the reader-list, a mailinglist attached to
Sarai, the new media centre in Dehli, India. The list contains both
researchers and artists and a Linux community which is affiliated to Sarai.
The discussion is touching the delicate question about Linux being an
closed, monopolized knowlegde in the hands of a small geek class, quite the
opposite of the proclaimed 'freedom.' Needless to say that the Linux faction
has a different position. If you want to join the reader-list, please visit
www.sarai.net or go directly to
http://mail.sarai.net/mailman/listinfo/reader-list. Best, Geert)

It started like this:

From: "Joy Chatterjee" <joy sarai.net>
To: "Prakash Advani" <prakash gnu.org>;
<linux-india-general lists.sourceforge.net>; "Raju Mathur"
<raju linux-delhi.org>; <fsf-india gnu.org.in>
Cc: <linux-india-general lists.sourceforge.net>; <reader-list sarai.net>;
<mallet efn.org>
Sent: Monday, August 06, 2001 6:30 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] Re: [LIG] Re: WB Govt ties up with MSFT

"Where as in case of GNU/Linux anyone can add the Indian Language layer
depending on the needs."

Its all theory but in reality MS Office has a hindi version but any Linux
software do not have any hindi version, Quark Express is also working on a
hindi version but Linux doesn't even have any publishing software like
QuarkExpress (and also web designing software), forget about Indian
versions.
It is more over frustrating to see that there is no alternative of server
end bitstream technology for easy viewing of indian web pages in Linux. But
truth is IE has!

So I don't know how Linux people claim that Linux has more scope in Indian
language, where as proprietary models are already working on it !!!

Joy

---

From: "Shuddhabrata Sengupta" <shuddha sarai.net>
To: <reader-list sarai.net>
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 10:03 PM
Subject: [Reader-list] WB Government ties up with Microsoft

I am writing this in response to the recent postings on the list regarding
the issue of petitioning the West Bengal government to consider free
software
as an alternative to Microsoft.

Let us suppose that the honourable minsiters and bureaucrats who run the
Government of West Bengal made a deal to run Linux instead of Microsoft, on
their 'e governance' projects, would this make a difference to the quality
of
life of the citizens and subjects of west bengal, and would it make a
difference to their 'freedom' .

If this be the case, then the people of Mexico and China (whose governments
enthusiastically push Linux) would have felt 'freer' than in the era when
microsoft products were used in government computers. Reports from Mexcio
and
from China do not indicate a significant increase in the well being and
freedom of the inhabitants of Mexico or China in the 'post Linux' era.

Free software happens to run more cheaply and in many cases, more
efficiently
than propeitary software, which is why it makes sense for state governments
to go in for it. But this is not a socially adequate reason , in my opinion,
for free software activists to be in bed with state governments. IF they
decide to do so, then it must be seen as an  expression ofthe (legitmate)
self interest of free software programmers, to advance their expertise and
their skills to a big client, not in the interests of society at large.
These
two (the implications of free software for the particular interests of
programmers and the general interests of society must be seen as distinct)

The philosphical and ethical case for free software rests in its
contrariness
(not always opposition) to the commercial imperative and to any restrictions
on knowledge. In inisisting that code, be something that is not bough, sold
or imprisoned, the practitioners of free software suggest the possibility of
building new (non commodified) relationships of exchange between ourselves
and the products of our labour, as well as a new configuration of the
meaning
of value. That is a lot, but that is also all there is to it.

The state on the other hand, rests on the protection that law gives to some
to extort more value from the labour of others. At the heart of each organ
of
the state is its impilcit recognition that force must maintain the unequal
relations of labour and those that benefit from labour.

To give an example, if tomorrow, those who run a particular state decide
that
the free exchange of code is an offence that denies it of revenue  and
corporation X of profit then there is nothing that any free software
activist
can do about this. It will carry with it the force of judicial violence and
the fiction of the will of the people.This protection has the force of
socially legitimized violence  (also known as the police, the military and
state paramilitaries and the prison system) behind it, and the manifest
fiction of representative democracy as a screen in front of it.

(thats the deal - the market is the milk from which the cream of revenue can
be skimmed by the strong man who controls the thugs with sticks who police
the fairground - the strong man and the men with sticks are the state and
the
fairground is the market. The market men need the state to ensure that they
can squeeze, buy and sell labour and its products, and the state needs the
market men to get to the cream)

Will the adoption of Linux machines for e governance carry with it for
instance any checks and balances to ensure that freedom of information is
not
compromised in the state of west bengal, will it bring with it the power to
scrutinize how and in which instances the managements of jute mills in the
neighbourhood of calcutta resort to police measures to control a restive
workforce? Any thing that makes an oppressive machinery run with greater
efficiency must be resisted by anyone interested in enlarging the scope of
human freedom. The government of west bengal, like any governement anywhere
in the world, rests on the daily humiliation of all its citizens and
subjects, anything that contributes to its power should be resisted.

Whatever is valuable in free software, IMHO, gets immediately compromised
when we offer "free software" as the panacea for bad governance. Governance
will be governance, no matter what you do it with. The radio for instance,
which has a great democratic cultural potential also was the greatest means
of fascist propaganda in the twentieth century. The printing press was as
instrumental in spreading lies as it was in telling the truth. It all
depends
on who has the machine and the code in their hands. One of the key functions
of the modern state is the centralization and control of information, the
creation of databanks and immense registers that track the lives of citizens
and subjects. The history of computing and computing corporations is replete
with instances in which the computing power of corporations and the
computing
necessities of the state led to several marriages of convenience, this
hallowed list includes IBMs close relationship to the calcualtion
requirements for sustaining a system of prison labour in Nazi germany.

I am sure others can give other examples. Information in the hands of the
state has almost always been dangerous for the citizens, that is why the
most
sinister organs of state power are given the task of information processing
and intelligence gathering. The relationship between Information Technology
and the States apparatus has always been one that led to more prisons, more
laws, more censorship and more weapons of mass destruction. The liberatory
potential of Information Technology can be realised only when it is not
reduced to be the ghost in the machine of the state.

I would argue that proponents of free software do everything within their
means to actively encourage the usage of free software in those contexts
that
are independent of the state and of market forces. Where such spaces do not
exist, or are feeble, they must join hands with others to create and sustain
such spaces no matter what the cost. Appealing to the state to run on Linux
is the easy option of inviting ones own executioner into ones home.

The attempt to petition the state in favour of free software carries with it
the pathetic baggage of 'urging the state to act in the interests of its
subjects' and suggests that the free software movement in India has a long
way  to go in understanding the dynamics of state power. The state as an
instrument of class power is not and cannot be a democratic insturment, no
matter how populist its stated agenda.

And frankly, I find the search for , more or less, 'patriotic' software,
which is 'more' or 'less' suitable for the security of the state, pathetic,
to say the least. It is nothing less than totally myopic to suggest that
code
should serve as the frontier checkposts of nation states.

While I am all in favour of constant compaigning and vigilance to ensure
that
the few paltry liberties of citizens and others in any state are not
encroached upon, I find it intriguing to contemplate the spectacle of the
champions of liberty and freedom  in the free software movement wanting to
participate in the further control over peoples lives through 'e
governance'.

e governance sucks no matter what you do it with - microsoft or linux !

Yours in Dismay

Shuddha

---

From: "Ravikant" <ravikant sarai.net>
To: <reader-list sarai.net>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 7:32 AM
Subject: [Reader-list] Re: West Bengal-MS tie up

The postings on the WB-MS tie-up have confirmed my fears about the
desperation the FS community feels. The desperation emerges from a sense of
rootlessness, for the community does not show the vitality its passion
should
have revealed and generated.

I am with Shuddha's critique of the state, with Joy's frustration about the
lack of linux efforts in the language domain, with Jeebesh's appeal to
refresh the roots and Steef's futuristic optimism with regard to MS
collapsing under its own weight. And Raju's gesture makes me sad.

Here is why:

While pointing fingers at others' amnesia and refusal to learn from history,
we must recall our own. Knowledge and Power have been inextricably linked,
colonialism should have taught us. Look at what happened to the communities
that relied too much on the state. Sanskrit was never a people's tongue, nor
was Persian. So, perehaps language can be seen as inhabiting a community and
Hindi language is another case in point. The real estrangement of the
language from the people did not come in the pre-independence period, though
the effort was made even then to gain access to the royal corridors. Hindi
becomes laughable only when it becomes the Rajbhasha (literally, the
language
of the state). It looses characters like Malaviya who constructed a whole
university out of begging from the community. It looses its sense of
purpose,
the will to freedom, and the sense of diversity and dignity. It becomes
dependent on the grants from the state in the guise of various Academies and
Rajbhasha Vibhags (depts). It creates a vocabulary nobody uses, a canon
everybody abhors, and a university pedagogy that has no more value than a
pastime. The reason why it survives is that there is a community of users
outside the narrow and wooden prisonhouse called nation-state. In the films,
for example. Or, in the numerous local, short-lived yet always
proliferating,
world of small magazines (even after the big corporates like TOI and HT
withdrew their publications). With the net and the web it has found a new
energy, has witnessed an explosion of diverse creativity: the popular is
writing the code, as it were, with passionate discussions and a self-
consciously inclusivist mode of refashioning against the English-dominated
odds of the computer world. It could be true of other Indian languages.

The point is that the cyber-moment does provide an opportunity to
disentangle
technology from the close historical association it has had with the state,
so much so that the two have been synonymous in popular memory. It was, and
still is, in the Free Software philosophy and history to rehabilitate
technology amongst the people, where it began its journey: remember the
early
artefacts of the pre-state days? Or the origins of domestication of plants
and animals? When the state came and started owning technology, it created
machines of mass destruction. Needless to say,it also destroyed Freedom.

Ravikant
Sarai, CSDS
29, Rajpur Road, Delhi

---

From: "Mrityunjoy Chatterjee" <joychatterjee yahoo.com>
To: <reader-list sarai.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 4:59 AM
Subject: [Reader-list] freesoftware v/s freedom

I find the argument of American state and American
company very funny. This patriotic pretension can act
as boomerang to FSF as it is also a US based
organization and Mr. R(s.)ichard $tallman is also an
American. Rather some one can say this American
organization is conspiring to destroy Indian IT
industry and its market, which free software is
actually capable of. So FSF people should be careful
if they try to use patriotism as marketing strategy.
If we see the present IT condition of India and the
position of its labour force one can easily find that
there are many more jobless Visual Basic programmes
and NT network experts than Linux programmers and
Apache experts. And for this reason Linux programmers
are earning much more than average VB programmers. So
if Linux programmers try to pose themselves as
underdogs they are lying.
So it can easily be said that future of millions of VB
programmers and NT experts will be doomed if Linux
becomes prime platform. Thus FSF people are actually
depriving Indian computer workforce. Thousands of
rupees are spent by young students to learn VB or NT
and I wonder if any company teaches "free software" at
free of cost organization (this can be a illustrious
alternative which Mr. Raju Mathur should start now),
so that those who already have spent loads of money
need not to spend again. Thus by propagating Linux
they are betraying the people of India.
As already there is dearth of job in IT market, so
only thing that Linux can do is replacing existing VB
programmers with Linux programmers. It means it will
only construct a community against an existing worker
community in the IT market. It means it will increase
social violence because lot of people will loose their
job. How one can do such an immoral act??
As some one can say my arguments are faulty, similarly
argument of U$ govt. and U$ company is equally faulty.
West Bengal government is not directly dealing with
Microsoft. It is dealing through WEBEL, NIIT and IBM.
What FSF think about these companies, and other Indian
companies which are working for Microsoft or partner
of Microsoft? FSF should contest with them on
patriotic issue rather than programming concepts.
By the way, what about Intel, Red Hat, Corel Linux and
other non-Indian commercialized "free software" and
hardware? What will happen with them, will FSF keep
them or throw them away?

As far as alternative is concerned I have already
mentioned one. Just by writing a "free software" and
communicating with programmers in mailing lists does
not mean formation of community it actually ends up as
formation of caste or class. Community also exists
outside the professional horde. If intended there many
things which are need to be done other than
e-governance. Actually there are not education
institution for learning Linux. Theoretical and
practical education is very much needed. Workshops and
training sessions are required. Softwares in Indian
language, books on Linux in Indian languages are badly
required. Funds can be raised for all these things
from private institutions, NGOs, and even state. Main
thing is intension. If some one is intended to do
non-authoritative work s/he can easily find one. There
are many people who choose to do basic community
oriented work leaving back their status and career.
Actually every thing depends upon person's intension
and priority. Otherwise Mr. Raju Mathur also admits
that e-governance should be smashed.

J

---

From: "Prabhat Kumar" <prabhatmuhurta yahoo.co.in>
To: <reader-list sarai.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 1:43 PM
Subject: [Reader-list] F$F v/s free software

In support of Chatterjee's mail I would like to add
few more  words. NIIT and WEBEL are not only doing
e-governance but also setting up community based low
cost education and training centers and information
kiosks.

On the contrary due to lack of £inux education and
training programmes, actually the knowledge is
controlled by very few programmers. They enjoy certain
monopoly in the field of £inux programming. Open
source acts as very good cover up as most of the
people are not able to write programmes. Thus control
automatically remains in the hand of organization like
F$F.

If one observes closely, F$F works against freedom. It
has no programme of expansion of knowledge base. It
entirely works with the pretension of "free" as free
market, where every person is free to use free
software provided that person has his own ability to
use free software. Programmes are shared but not the
know-how. It is like giving away the house without the
key. The key of knowledge is in control of very few.
More over, documentation and programmes are available
on net, and in India luxury of downloading
documentation and programme is only available to very
few corporate giants. Most of the company stuffs work
on dial up connection, which is used only under the
control of manager and company requirement. Staffs
hardly get opportunity to use internet for their own
purpose. In most of the cases they are not even
allowed to see their personal e-mails. Lets not talk
about those people who have no internet connection.
For them thinking of £inux is day dream.

Unfortunately, in India freedom in free software is
more than fallacy. Though F$F is new but £inux is used
in India for a long period of time. But there is not a
single effort seen by the £inux sects, though almost
every city has a £inux User Group, to share the
knowledge in the society. Building the community based
on sharing as the philosophy of free software claims
is only thing, which is not seen in their activity.

In India £inux User Groups are seem to be only
interested in monopoly, corporate marketing/servicing
and e-governance, basically making big money by the
holy name of freedom!

Prabhat

---

From: "Raju Mathur" <raju linux-delhi.org>
To: "Prabhat Kumar" <prabhatmuhurta yahoo.co.in>
Cc: <reader-list sarai.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 3:30 PM
Subject: [Reader-list] F$F v/s free software

Hi Prabhat,

Fascinating thoughts!

My comments under...

"Prabhat" == Prabhat Kumar <prabhatmuhurta yahoo.co.in> writes:

    Prabhat> In support of Chatterjee's mail I would like to add few
    Prabhat> more words. NIIT and WEBEL are not only doing
    Prabhat> e-governance but also setting up community based low cost
    Prabhat> education and training centers and information kiosks.

Umm, so the fact that NIIT and WEBEL are helping the community
exonerates MS from all its sins?  That's a new way of looking of
things... lateral, at the very least.

    Prabhat> On the contrary due to lack of £inux education and
    Prabhat> training programmes, actually the knowledge is controlled
    Prabhat> by very few programmers. They enjoy certain monopoly in
    Prabhat> the field of £inux programming. Open source acts as very
    Prabhat> good cover up as most of the people are not able to write
    Prabhat> programmes. Thus control automatically remains in the
    Prabhat> hand of organization like F$F.

I fail to see your point here.  Are you saying that Open Source (or
Free Software) are actually closed because not enough people have the
skill to write programs?  By your logic, Pfizer should be damned
tomorrow if it opens up the process of making an anti-AIDS drug since
99.999999% of the people in the world have no way of manufacturing
drugs.  Any author who makes his/her works public is damned because
most of the people in our country are illiterate.  This /mailing list/
is damned because it's an elitist tool available to only a small
fraction of a percent of people in our country.

If you're so concerned about this putative community that you keep
referring to in your message why aren't you spending your time working
for their upliftment instead of playing intellectual games using
elitist media?  How is this going to help them?

    Prabhat> If one observes closely, F$F works against freedom. It
    Prabhat> has no programme of expansion of knowledge base. It
    Prabhat> entirely works with the pretension of "free" as free
    Prabhat> market, where every person is free to use free software
    Prabhat> provided that person has his own ability to use free
    Prabhat> software. Programmes are shared but not the know-how. It
    Prabhat> is like giving away the house without the key. The key of
    Prabhat> knowledge is in control of very few.  More over,
    Prabhat> documentation and programmes are available on net, and in
    Prabhat> India luxury of downloading documentation and programme
    Prabhat> is only available to very few corporate giants. Most of
    Prabhat> the company stuffs work on dial up connection, which is
    Prabhat> used only under the control of manager and company
    Prabhat> requirement. Staffs hardly get opportunity to use
    Prabhat> internet for their own purpose. In most of the cases they
    Prabhat> are not even allowed to see their personal e-mails. Lets
    Prabhat> not talk about those people who have no internet
    Prabhat> connection.  For them thinking of £inux is day dream.

The Free Software movement has many goals. Making Free Software is
one of them. Disseminating it another. Documenting it is a third.
What I read from your message is that since the Free Software movement
has not setup community training centers for free to make information
about Free Software available to the masses it has no right to exist
or to have any say in any matter of importance. I find that more a
failure of corporates who're in bed with MS than of Free Software
itself.

If you'd looked around a little bit before you wrote your message
you'd have found oodles of information about FSF software, including
information on how to extend it, how to modify it, how to strip it
down to work in minimal environments; that you consider these aspects
of control indicates... never mind :-)

You may also like to pick up a copy of recent magazines which give
Linux CD's for free along with the magazine.  Come to a Linux-Delhi
meeting where you can pick up copied Linux on CD for Rs 20 (the cost
of a blank) or for nothing if you know how to turn out your empty
pockets.  Install Linux on a 100 computers from a single CD.  Make as
many copies of the CD as you want for just the cost of copying and
distribute them to to the ``community'' and all those deprived office
staff who never get to see the Internet.

    Prabhat> Unfortunately, in India freedom in free software is more
    Prabhat> than fallacy. Though F$F is new but £inux is used in
    Prabhat> India for a long period of time. But there is not a
    Prabhat> single effort seen by the £inux sects, though almost
    Prabhat> every city has a £inux User Group, to share the knowledge
    Prabhat> in the society. Building the community based on sharing
    Prabhat> as the philosophy of free software claims is only thing,
    Prabhat> which is not seen in their activity.

    Prabhat> In India £inux User Groups are seem to be only interested
    Prabhat> in monopoly, corporate marketing/servicing and
    Prabhat> e-governance, basically making big money by the holy name
    Prabhat> of freedom!

Ah, I presume that you're an active member of many User Groups and
Linux/GNU-related mailing lists in India to be in a position to make
such a definitive statement.  You are, aren't you?

The fight for freedom has to be fought at many levels.  I have no
issues with your approach; don't damn my method just because it's
different or doesn't fit into whatever -ism is the flavour of the
month today.

Closed minds are the biggest hurdle to individual freedom, and I
grieve to see that those whom I considered my peers suffer from the
same malaise that has kept this country from achieving anything except
grandiose words and ideals in the past 5 1/2 decades.  Anyway, let's
all talk a bit more about this, since talking's just about the most
productive activity that we seem to be capable of.

Regards,

-- Raju

Raju Mathur          raju kandalaya.org           http://kandalaya.org/

---

From: "Joy Chatterjee" <joy sarai.net>
To: "Raju Mathur" <raju linux-delhi.org>; "Prabhat Kumar"
<prabhatmuhurta yahoo.co.in>
Cc: <reader-list sarai.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] F$F v/s free software

Umm, so the fact that NIIT and WEBEL are helping the community
exonerates MS from all its sins?  That's a new way of looking of
things... lateral, at the very least.

I think Prabhat is talking in the context of my mail so let me say that
SFS-India is also sponsoring RMS. So who is sinner lets not get in to it.

I fail to see your point here.  Are you saying that Open Source (or
Free Software) are actually closed because not enough people have the
skill to write programs?  By your logic, Pfizer should be damned
tomorrow if it opens up the process of making an anti-AIDS drug since
99.999999% of the people in the world have no way of manufacturing
drugs.  Any author who makes his/her works public is damned because
most of the people in our country are illiterate.  This /mailing list/
is damned because it's an elitist tool available to only a small
fraction of a percent of people in our country.

If you're so concerned about this putative community that you keep
referring to in your message why aren't you spending your time working
for their upliftment instead of playing intellectual games using
elitist media?  How is this going to help them?

If some one opens up certain part of the production process knowing that
other part is never be available for the community to replicate that is
crook.

The Free Software movement has many goals.  Making Free Software is
one of them.  Disseminating it another.  Documenting it is a third.
What I read from your message is that since the Free Software movement
has not setup community training centers for free to make information
about Free Software available to the masses it has no right to exist
or to have any say in any matter of importance.  I find that more a
failure of corporates who're in bed with MS than of Free Software
itself.

If you'd looked around a little bit before you wrote your message
you'd have found oodles of information about FSF software, including
information on how to extend it, how to modify it, how to strip it
down to work in minimal environments; that you consider these aspects
of control indicates... never mind :-)

Prabhat never said that Linux should not exist. He is saying it is existing
as a monopolised form of knowledge. And it has never shown any interest to
share in the community at large. He is complaining against the strategy of
Linux users to keep it under their control.

I had been working in a Linux environment for quite a time now, I never saw
any information available outside Linux community and internet.

You may also like to pick up a copy of recent magazines which give
Linux CD's for free along with the magazine.  Come to a Linux-Delhi
meeting where you can pick up copied Linux on CD for Rs 20 (the cost
of a blank) or for nothing if you know how to turn out your empty
pockets.  Install Linux on a 100 computers from a single CD.  Make as
many copies of the CD as you want for just the cost of copying and
distribute them to to the ``community'' and all those deprived office
staff who never get to see the Internet.

Sorry to say that in Sarai in spite of having Linux experts  we find it
difficult to install and use Linux. People are very much here who
volunteered to become gini pig of Linux but with time they are regreting.
So just availablility of Linux CD without any support is same as providing
lock without key.

Ah, I presume that you're an active member of many User Groups and
Linux/GNU-related mailing lists in India to be in a position to make
such a definitive statement.  You are, aren't you?

The fight for freedom has to be fought at many levels.  I have no
issues with your approach; don't damn my method just because it's
different or doesn't fit into whatever -ism is the flavour of the
month today.

One thing can never be achieved by fighting is freedom, so isms and
foundations should break down and disseminate in larger community.

Closed minds are the biggest hurdle to individual freedom, and I
grieve to see that those whom I considered my peers suffer from the
same malaise that has kept this country from achieving anything except
grandiose words and ideals in the past 5 1/2 decades.  Anyway, let's
all talk a bit more about this, since talking's just about the most
productive activity that we seem to be capable of.

That is true so Linux people should stop nagging about MS and do some
constructive work for the community !!

Joy

---

From: "Steef Heus" <Steef cwac.nl>
To: "Joy Chatterjee" <joy sarai.net>
Cc: <reader-list sarai.net>
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2001 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: [Reader-list] F$F v/s free software: Succes will only be
achieved by ComAcitivists

Joy,

In this world never anything has been for free as everyone has to make a
living. Even religions and politics only survive as their representatives
are able to make a (basic) living out of it one way or the other.

So also transformations can only be achieved as people can make a living out
of it and if the aimed transormation has benefits for others in terms that
they are willing to pay for it. It's just basic economics (look what
happened to the Net's free access and services).

It is good that changes are (often aggressively) addressed by 'activists'.
That wakes up the world. But that often ends in complete non productive
fundamentalists discussions.

The real transformation is almost always made by people who support an
ideal, but also can make a living out of it. I would like to lable them
(although I don't like lables, but just for the sake of argument I'll
introduce one) as "ComActivists". "Com" representing 'Commercial'.

Raju (from what he wrote) is in my view one of them and I know many, many
more. They make it actually happen. Professionals addopting new technologies
from a point of believe. Actually working on getting things done, overcoming
hurdles, bridging gaps, pragmatically solving problems. Learning from their
experience. Satisfying customers that are happy with the results and pay
them for their services. That is much more productive then endless
discussions.

I can't think of any reason why these rules should not apply to free (as in
open source) software.

Ever thought of what would happen if the number of Linux professionals would
be equal or double to the number of MS professionals? (just for the example,
there are many more hurdles to overcome making a Linux a real success)

So, it is my strong believe that in order to make Linux or other software
succesfull more people must be commercially involved/interested in it.

Talking is good and riskless, doing however and trying making a living out
of it is more effective, but also more risky. And that is where one can see
the difference between the 'activist' and the 'ComActivist'.

Steef

---

From: "Supreet" <supreet sarai.net>
To: <reader-list sarai.net>; "Joy Chatterjee" <joy sarai.net>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Reader-list] F$F v/s free software

Hi

I don't know I should say anything or not.But
1) Free software community initially was kind of centrallized till late 80's
and it started to spread due to linux.
2) I think Richard Stallman is a God and Daemon of free software. Many may
disagree.
3) (Prabhats point) Community does provide support in terms of user manuals,
Howto's etc. etc. but one of the problems is, often you have to go online to
actually see the latest version.

sites to visit:
www.linuxdoc.org documentation of various linux stuff
www.sourceforge.net Projects and programming infrastructure
www.freshmeat.net etc etc

Big problem here is *nix knowledge base is that, it takes time to penetrate.
Like I see here in ascii tent everybody I mean everbody apart from a Adobe
premiere machine is debian linux.

Last but not the least Redhat, emacs, python is the best

love
Supreet

---

From: "Prabhat Kumar" <prabhatmuhurta yahoo.co.in>
To: <reader-list sarai.net>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 3:37 AM
Subject: [Reader-list] freedom v/s freesoftware

I have seen all the mails sent by Mr. Mathur and Mr.
Chatterjee.

LUGs people just love to target Microsoft by whatever
means they find. They are so closed-minded. In the
context of patriotism I said Indian companies like
NIIT and WEBEL are handling the deal so basically
logic of patriotism doesn't work. I think my friend is
too innocent to understand such straightforward
argument.

I think Chatterjee had become unnecessarily emotional
so he used the word crook. But I think actually,
governments should be cautioned of Linux otherwise
they would have to GPL every piece of their secret
information about e-governance. If secrecy of
government information is legitimate then why not the
secrecy of business information is equally legitimate?
In the competitive market every company maintains
secrecy for its existence, what is wrong about it?
What is special about software and Microsoft? My
friend was talking about AIDS medicine, is the
information about that medicine is freely available?
Does my friend have stopped taking medicines, the
information of which is not available openly? I don't
understand this half-baked notion of freedom. I think
freedom of medicine is more important than freedom of
software. Is anybody asking for freedom of medicinal
information? Is my friend ready to challenge the sin
of secrecy done by state about its information?
Logically my friend should reject governments if he is
honest about his theory of free information. Yes,
fight for freedom should be fought at every level, but
nobody is stopping anyone to be consistent in his
theory. If Microsoft is a sinner then all companies
and institutions are sinner who hides information. So
my friend, think deeply what you are saying.

Actually, my argument was due to the lack of training
programme, even though programmes are open or
so-called free; they are in control of very few. By
and large people who are working in the market come
from lower middle class and lesser academic
background. They need some training or guidance to
start working. Most of them cannot afford to go to
institutions like NIIT. For example, I have asked many
network administrators working in small offices why
they are not using Apache. The reply I have got that
first of all their office doesn't permit to download
and secondly they don't know where to learn Apache.
They didn't know anything about LUGs. Frankly
speaking, LUGs are too culturally coded for large
section of people to participate. First of all, though
now they are tending to act patriotic for their
professional ambition, but they hardly even speak
their own mother tongue. Most of them are quite
elitist by their behavior if not stinking rich. I
think these two are enough reason for society at large
to relate with these people. Another important thing
is, yes, few books and CDs are available in the market
but these books are only for those who have comfort
with English, who doesn't need some one else to
explain what is written in the book. Using mailing
lists etc. requires some amount of social and cultural
confidence along with technical competency. Otherwise,
they do lot of unnoticed improvisation (can be called
as hacking, thus I feel that LUGs are only celebrating
the religion of hacking and true hacking is happening
somewhere else) in hardware and usage of software as
they have to live with limited resources provided by
their shop owner or company unlike most of Linux Users
who work in big companies and play with ample amount
of resources. When I said free as "free market" I
meant that, if some one does not have wealth of
English education and cultural confidence then nobody
is there to help him out. My friend, society is not
only comprised of elites so there is no harm in
thinking about poor. And I don't know when LUGs will
realize that elites are there only because of
proprietary structure of social formation. It doesn't
take minute to sweep noises like freedom if so is
needed. Companies and states are only instruments in
that formation. I find it very amusing to see that
after seeing cases like BMW, Jessica Lall, NBA etc.
LUGs still have lot of faith on copyright and
legalities to protect GPL. Wow. Take my word the
"freedom" of Linux will only grow if non-elite people
are also considered as human being. Otherwise Linux
will grow but "freedom" will die its inevitable death.
Knowledge never diminishes by sharing, but yes,
monopoly and control do, isn't it?

Going to slums is considered as undignified act by
many, so I don't expect my friend to do so but if he
had accepted my suggestion of starting a free training
school of "free software" that would have caused some
reason to respect Linux Users in India. I promise to
send as many students as he needs. But I don't think
it is going to happen.

I have seen two types of doctors, one is slogging in
public hospitals and earning a living, and another is
running a private hospital and making money. I respect
the first and consider the second as curse on the
mankind. As far as I remember I wrote about making big
money not earning a living. My friend, twisting waist
is appreciable but not twisting words. Commercial
activism is quite an amusing concept. It sounds like
pushing the car while sitting inside it. I hope the
car will move some day!! In absence of social
interaction and intellectual awareness, after some
time commerce grows and activism vanishes. I have
heard that in west hackers participate in hard-core
social activism as well. But in India in one hand they
mock "communists and socialists" on the other hand
they dream to do e-governance for a communist
government (West Bengal government). I hope they are
just naïve.

If people are requesting LUGs not to take dreams about
e-governance and think of expanding the user base in
non-elite and poor community they are actually
expressing their respect for philosophy of freedom and
free software. I think any sane person would expect
the same. Deaths of good philosophies in the hand of
their preachers are nothing new in history but it
hurts to see it happening. Somewhere I read that
philosophies are like an Egyptian mythical bird, which
dies to give birth to an offspring. I sigh and wait.

Prabhat

---

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